Noah Shachtman discusses Pablo Torre collaboration on Knicks’ MSG surveillance bombshell

Pablo Torre Finds Out has become the go-to destination for investigative sports journalism. His topics range from serious to lighthearted. One of his most recent episodes on the New York Knicks is a must-listen.

PTFO collaborated with WIRED on a feature about Knicks owner James Dolan’s surveillance system at Madison Square Garden. In the episode, WIRED contributing editor Noah Shachtman joined Torre to reveal disturbing details, including extensive use of facial recognition, Dolan reportedly reading tweets and calling the police on users, and also banning certain people.

To learn more, we recently caught up with Shachtman, who, together with Robert Silverman, wrote the WIRED story.

Note: This interview has been edited and condensed for length and clarity.

Awful Announcing: How did this episode come about?

Noah Shachtman: “A couple of years ago, I did an episode of PTFO on Trump’s attempt to buy the Buffalo Bills and his battle with Bon Jovi to secure that franchise, and I did that in collaboration with Rolling Stone. We were talking and mused that Dolan would be a great next target, then promptly did nothing about it. Then this lawsuit came up in September of last year from a member of the Madison Square Garden security staff against his bosses. It sort of gave us the opening we needed to go look into it.

“So, me and my co-writer, Bobby Silverman, did a lot of digging for WIRED, dug and dug and dug, and then, toward the end, we brought it to PTFO, and they did their thing too. I’m really happy with the results.”

What kind of feedback have you received since the podcast and article?

“We’ve gotten a lot of good responses from people who knew a little about what was going on at the Garden and the facial recognition program, but really had no idea it went that far. So I think the response has been positive. And then there were some Twitter weirdos who accused us of sabotaging the Knicks. As we saw from Monday night’s game, they’re perfectly able to sabotage themselves.”

What would you consider the most fascinating detail in the story?

“To me, the point at which we knew we really had something here was when I got the copy of that detailed surveillance report on the woman we’re calling Nina Richards. It looked into her and kept tabs on her second by second, including when she got a beer and when she went to the bathroom. Once I had that document, I knew we had something really special. …To be clear, we haven’t talked to her. But we did get this document that showed the camera position, the time of night, and second-by-second details of how they tracked her inside the Garden.”

Any theories about why Dolan is doing this?

“That’s a great question. You’ve seen the interview where he claims it’s all about security. Yes. And maybe that’s true, but the preponderance of the evidence we found says that the goal is different. It really seems to be much more about keeping perceived enemies from going to his properties, like the Garden, freely, or, once they’re there, from moving about freely. The security aspect doesn’t seem to be front and center.”

How did you debunk the notion that security is the primary goal?

“In that lawsuit that I mentioned, there was also an affidavit. It’s by a former NYPD officer-turned-Garden security guy named Ty Munn. Munn, in his affidavit, said that he was actually asked to ignore security precautions. For example, he was asked to take away bomb-sniffing dogs when Dolan was nearby because Dolan didn’t like dogs. We also know from the NYPD that if the facial recognition system were really about security, they’d be ingesting all kinds of information from the NYPD. The NYPD was categorical that it did not transmit facial recognition or any other kind of data to the Garden like this.”

What else doesn’t make sense about the Garden’s security?

“We heard from Garden security sources that tried to add the FBI’s Most Wanted list to this facial recognition security system. They were rebuffed several times. Later on, the Garden security vendor did add some photos from the Most Wanted list, but at least the one we identified was a hacker in Tehran, who doesn’t seem very likely to go check out the next Harry Styles concert.”

How does the surveillance system at Madison Square Garden work?

“Before you even walk in, they have cameras that feed into facial recognition databases. They’re mounted on all the new school metal detectors. They can watch while you’re waiting in line to go through the metal detector. They’re scanning your face to see if they know you. Once that happens, they can either A) ban you or B) have someone follow you around while you’re in the Garden…

“There’s been some form of facial recognition system since 2018, but the current software dates back to 2023. So, I would say that, at least in the last couple or three years, if you’ve gone to the Garden, they have your face.”

Many people who have been banned from the Garden are reportedly lawyers. Do you have any idea how many?

“There are still many lawyers banned from entry. I don’t know exactly how many. One estimate put it at its peak at 1,500 people. That’s a lot of human beings, and many of these lawyers weren’t involved in litigation with Dolan at all. It’s like their partners were. So, in the story, there’s this incident where a woman is just trying to bring her kid to the Christmas show at Radio City, and the mom couldn’t go in because her colleague had pissed Jim Dolan off.”

Can you give an example of the security force being overzealous?

“It’s something of a personal fixation for Dolan and his security chief, I’ve been told. So, if you write something that is perceived as a threat, the Garden security force will do everything they can to make sure the local cops come to your door.

“In the story, we chronicle the case of a 14-year-old in Colorado, several thousand miles away from the Garden, who said something dumb online, something many 14-year-olds do. The cops showed up at his house, and the response from inside the Garden, according to a text exchange that I got, was, ‘Well, at least we scared the crap, poop emoji, out of him.”

Why should people care?

“Answer No. 1 is that the Garden security force actually operates outside the Garden. They’ve sort of functionally become these unregulated fake police officers in the Midtown area, at least, and they’ve gone and tried to bust people selling merch and fake tickets, and one of them even got beaten up doing so. They’ve also infiltrated protests that have taken place in Midtown, so if you’re part of a protest in Manhattan, there’s some chance that a member of the Garden security force is keeping tabs on you, which I think is pretty wild.

“The second reason is that Dolan is an example of a larger trend, which is that now with enough money and intention, any billionaire can assemble the intelligence tools that would have only been reserved for a national-level spy service back in the day. There are so many former FBI, CIA, NYPD, and other types available for hire. There are so many sophisticated technologies that can be used to screen and capture the very private data of ordinary citizens.”